Discussion:
How to stop climate change: the easy way
(too old to reply)
Captain Compassion
2007-11-09 15:25:28 UTC
Permalink
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026

We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.

Despite this urgent timetable, our roads continue to heave with
traffic. Power companies draft blueprints for new coal-fired plants.
The skies over England are criss-crossed with vapour trails from
aircraft travelling some of the busiest routes in the world. Global
emissions, far from decreasing, remain on a steep upward curve of
almost exponential growth.

Sure, there are some encouraging signs. Media coverage of climate
change remains high, and a worldwide popular movement - now perhaps
upwards of a million people - is mobilising. But with so little time
left, we must recognise that most people won't do anything to save the
planet unless we make it much, much easier for them. This essay
outlines my three-part strategy for stopping climate change - the easy
way.


STEP ONE: Stop debating, start doing

Although there is now a very broad consensus on climate in the media
and politics, opinion polls show that many people still harbour doubts
about climate change. One of the peculiarities of the climate debate
is that although more than 99 per cent of international climate change
scientists agree on the causes of global warming, the denial lobby
still only has to produce one contrarian to undermine the consensus in
the public mind. Similarly, changes in our understanding can be
magnified and distorted to suggest that, because we don't know
everything, therefore we must know nothing. Thus, data from one
glacier that apparently bucks the global trend can be wielded as a
trump card against all the accumulated knowledge of climate science.

This partly reflects a perhaps healthy scepticism in the public mind
about believing "experts". But there is also a darker force at work:
doubt undermines responsibility for action. If you don't know for sure
that global warming isn't caused by sunspots or cosmic rays, then it's
OK to go on driving and flying without feeling as if you're doing
something bad. When it comes to global warming, many people -
subconsciously at least - actually want to be lied to.

This is where the psychology gets interesting. Most green campaigners
assume that information leads to action, and that deeper knowledge
will undermine denial. Actually, the reverse may well be true: the
more disempowered that people feel about a huge, scary issue like
climate change, the more unwilling they may be to believe it is a
problem. This sounds illogical, but it makes sense. If people don't
feel they can do very much about climate change, they will prefer to
cling to any tempting doubts that are dangled their way. Presenting
people with more gloom-and-doom scenarios, however true they might be,
may thus serve to reinforce denial.

Most campaigners try to mitigate this by also offering people easy
things they can do: the "just change your light bulbs" approach.
However, most people intuitively understand that an enormous problem
cannot be solved by a tiny solution; that changing your light bulbs
will not save a single polar bear. They are right, of course. So how
can we mobilise collective action on a sufficiently grand scale to
make a measurable contribution to solving the problem?

The American political strategists Ted Nordhaus and Michael
Shellenberger make a specific proposal in a recent paper, and this
forms the first plank of my three-part strategy to tackle global
warming. Stop debating, they say, and start doing. Instead of
confronting deeply established patterns of behaviour head on, let's
start focusing on preparing for the impacts of global warming that are
already inevitable. That means working on flood defences for
vulnerable towns, helping to drought-proof agriculture and population
centres, and adapting to sea-level rise in low-lying areas.

By sidestepping the tedious causality argument (is it us or natural
cycles?), focusing on global warming preparedness can also help reopen
the mitigation agenda. Shifting sandbags is empowering because you
feel as if you're doing something tangible and useful. But accepting
the need for adaptation and preparation implicitly involves accepting
the reality of global warming, and therefore the eventual need to cut
emissions. Many more people may be prepared to accept the change - the
introduction of personal carbon allowances, for example - that this
will inevitably mean.

In any case, adaptation is now essential because of the one degree or
so of additional global warming that is already locked into the system
thanks to past emissions. With proper planning, we can not only save
thousands of human lives, but also try to protect natural ecosystems
by establishing new "refuge" coral reefs in cooler waters or helping
species to migrate as temperature zones shift.

STEP TWO: Focus on the big wins

But this is a long-term agenda, and we don't have much time. Hence my
second proposal, which is for a much clearer focus on win-win
strategies for immediate emissions reductions. These are things we
would want to be doing anyway, even if global warming had never been
thought of. Reducing deforestation in the tropics is a big win-win.
Inherently desirable, this by itself would reduce global carbon
emissions by 10 per cent or more. All it takes is money: we have to
pay countries such as Brazil and Indonesia to leave their forests
alone rather than chop them down to sell to us as plywood and
furniture.

There are obvious win-win strategies in the domestic sector. Better
insulation makes living conditions more comfortable and reduces fuel
bills. Even without climate change we'd still want to be getting cars
out of town centres to reduce air pollution and improve the urban
experience. Getting more children to walk and cycle to school improves
their physical health and helps to tackle obesity. Enforcing speed
limits (and reducing them further) would save hundreds of lives a
year, and give some respite from the incessant noise pollution of
speeding traffic.

Quality-of-life issues are by their nature subjective, so we need to
focus on things that most people will agree on. Partly, this depends
on how an issue is framed: most people don't want motorists to be
unjustifiably hounded, but nor are they likely to oppose a measure
that is about saving children's lives. The ban on smoking in public,
for instance, was accepted precisely because the issue was correctly
framed, and quickly became imbued with a sense of inevitability.

There is also a high degree of consensus about the desirability of
localisation: protecting and encouraging small shops and local
businesses, privileging farmers' markets over supermarkets, helping
build stronger and more cohesive communities by reducing the need for
travel, and so on. The fact that all of these measures will also
reduce carbon emissions simply underlines the need for a more
determined approach to their implementation. A much longer-term agenda
here might be the reconnecting of people with their place and
surroundings, helping them feel more rooted in their communities and
proud of what is distinctive about their own areas. We are bringing up
children who often have no direct experience of nature any more. Tree
houses are replaced with Nintendos, the unsupervised exercise of
playing outdoors replaced with structured exercise of sporting events.
The author Richard Louv terms this "nature deficit disorder" and asks
whether this disconnection might have something to do with the
alienation and boredom that many youngsters feel today.

STEP THREE: Use technology

But there are some areas of high-carbon behaviour that people will
always be reluctant to give up, and this brings me to the third and
final part of my strategy to deal with global warming - technology.

Today we face a situation where a global population of potentially
nine billion or so by 2050 continues to demand a steadily increasing
consumer lifestyle. There is nothing we can do to stop this, and nor
should we try. But it does put humanity on a very real collision
course with the planet, so we are going to have to throw every
technological tool we have at the problem to try to meet people's
aspirations without worsening our climatic predicament. Some of this
will involve technology leapfrogging: helping developing countries
skip over our dirty phase of industrialisation, by installing solar
power in remote, off-grid areas of Africa and Asia, for example. We
also need to help developing countries make choices that put fossil
fuels at the bottom of the energy shopping list, by helping them use
carbon capture and storage technology as well as nuclear power. Both
have obvious drawbacks, but I would rather see China building two
nuclear reactors a week than two coal-fired plants.

The localisation agenda can only go so far: in an age of
carbon-fuelled globalisation, we need to figure out ways to transport
people and goods long distances without increasing emissions. Aviation
in particular is crying out for a techno-fix. Humanity went from the
first manned flight in 1903 to putting a man on the moon in 1969. I
think we should give the aviation industry 15 years to find a low-
carbon way to shuttle people between continents - or get taxed out of
existence. I believe with this kind of incentive, designers would come
up with ideas none of us today could even conceive of.

The technological challenge is not just to come up with new
inventions, but - in the words of Robert Socolow and Stephen Pacala
from Princeton University - "to scale up what we already know how to
do". In their concept of "stabilisation wedges", each wedge represents
a billion tonnes of carbon shaved off the upward trend of emissions
over the next 50 years. Building two million one-megawatt wind
turbines, for example, is a wedge, as are two million hectares of
solar panels, a 700-fold increase from today's deployment. There are
many more wedges in the fields of transport, power generation and
energy efficiency. As the two researchers say, this reduces a "heroic
challenge" merely to a set of "monumental tasks". No one said it would
be easy.

Perhaps the most controversial technological option of all is one that
we need to keep strictly in reserve for real emergencies -
geo-engineering. Here, some proposals have more merit than others,
whether they be seeding the oceans with iron filings or putting up
solar mirrors in space. None of them is an alternative to reducing
emissions, but one just might be a valuable piece of insurance against
the worst-case climate change scenarios. Believe me, pretty much
anything is better than five or six degrees of global warming.

This may seem like a depressing conclusion, but it's really an
optimistic one. If we fail to reduce emissions quickly enough and find
ourselves frying, we must throw everything we possibly can at the
problem to counteract the warming process, however temporarily. At no
point - I repeat, at no point - do we give up and admit that all is
lost. If we go over two degrees, then we have to try and stop
ourselves going over three. If we fail to stabilise emissions by 2015,
then we have to try and stabilise them by 2016 or 2020. If people
continue to demand economic growth, then we have to try to deliver
than growth in a low-carbon way. It will never be too late. As long as
people and nature remain alive on this planet, we will still have
everything to fight for.
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Doorman
2007-11-09 15:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."

NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying to
spread fear and despair.
Captain Compassion
2007-11-09 17:16:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:21 -0600, "Doorman"
Post by Doorman
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."
NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying to
spread fear and despair.
Don't buy the "settled science" and "consesus" arguments eh?

"This discussion is behind us. It's over. The diagnosis is clear, the
science is unequivocal -- it's completely immoral, even, to question
now, on the basis of what we know, the reports that are out, to
question the issue and to question whether we need to move forward at
a much stronger pace as humankind to address the issues." -- Dr. Gro
Harlem Brundtland, UN special envoy on climate change.

Dr. Brundtland is a public health professional and former Norwegian
Prime Minister so she should know. :)
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Jerry Okamura
2007-11-12 06:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:21 -0600, "Doorman"
Post by Doorman
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."
NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying to
spread fear and despair.
Don't buy the "settled science" and "consesus" arguments eh?
"This discussion is behind us. It's over. The diagnosis is clear, the
science is unequivocal -- it's completely immoral, even, to question
now, on the basis of what we know, the reports that are out, to
question the issue and to question whether we need to move forward at
a much stronger pace as humankind to address the issues." -- Dr. Gro
Harlem Brundtland, UN special envoy on climate change.
"If" it is settled, then why isn't the world listening?
Daniel L Bergman
2007-11-16 17:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:21 -0600, "Doorman"
Post by Doorman
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."
NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying to
spread fear and despair.
Don't buy the "settled science" and "consesus" arguments eh?
Uh No. First, who settled it, and second, a consensus, isn't that about
as relevant as conventional wisdom, which BTW is almost always wrong?

The only thing true about global warming is that they are going to tax
the living crap out of you to combat it. Isn't it nice to have such
caring people controlling the debate? I am touched.
Post by Captain Compassion
"This discussion is behind us. It's over. The diagnosis is clear, the
science is unequivocal -- it's completely immoral, even, to question
now, on the basis of what we know, the reports that are out, to
question the issue and to question whether we need to move forward at
a much stronger pace as humankind to address the issues." -- Dr. Gro
Harlem Brundtland, UN special envoy on climate change.
Dr. Brundtland is a public health professional and former Norwegian
Prime Minister so she should know. :)
--
Daniel L Bergman
nightwind65


"There is no vice... so contemptible; he who permits himself to
tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and a third
time, till at length it becomes habitual..." ---Thomas
Jefferson
Dennis Kemmerer
2007-11-09 19:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doorman
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."
NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying
to spread fear and despair.
That argument's over, sparky. Go take up holocaust denial or something.
Captain Compassion
2007-11-16 17:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doorman
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Taking aim at Al Gore and other "climate change" activists, the founder of
the Weather Channel says the campaign to promote the theory of man-made
global warming is "the greatest scam in history."
NOT ALL SCIENTISTS AGREE. That should be the key statement when trying to
spread fear and despair.
The founder of the Weather Channel is not, as far as I have been able
to determine, a scientist.
How does effect the veracity of his statement?
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Captain Compassion
2007-11-17 04:22:15 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:50:08 -0800 (PST), Day Brown
Whether you look at the last hundred years, or the Greenland ice core
and the last 110,000 years, global warming is going on. Whether you
think only in the last hundred, or the last 12,000 does not alter the
data showing the world is getting warmer.
I've read that they think it will be warmer than at any time in the
last 5 million years. Well, ok. Was the world devoid of life then? No,
it was just different. Europe, for one, was tropical & subtropical
jungle. Yes, lotsa species will go extinct. And new species will
emerge. We have a word for that: evolution. I dont think we have the
power to stop that either.
Reducing the carbon footprint of what passes for modern civilization
will involve reductions in oil consumption. Given that petroleum
engineers say we will run out soon if we dont, makes the idea look
reasonable. The lower the supply of oil, the higher the price. The
higher the price, the more greed motivates men to try violent means to
control a supply. The violence however, damages the infrastructure,
which drives down production, and thereby drives the price higher, the
greed higher, and the violence higher.
Either find a rational way to cut oil consumption, which will reduce
greenhouse emissions, or watch the spread of violence and anarchy cut
oil consumption by eliminating the supply. They can do it the old
fashioned way. It certainly is not upta us. What is, is to pay
attention as all this unfolds, and make our own plans for the future
accordingly.
No matter what the political decisions, the way to bet is that the
climate model on which those decisions will be made is wrong. Climate
models always fail to include all the relevant factors, and therefore
always wrong. Ecosystems which have been very dry, wet, cold, or hot,
will prolly change the most. I would stay out of them. The temperate
zones where plants have had to adapt to wide variations are a better
bet.
Well said.
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Captain Compassion
2007-11-18 03:34:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:13:16 -0800 (PST), Day Brown
Post by Captain Compassion
No matter what the political decisions, the way to bet is that the
climate model on which those decisions will be made is wrong. Climate
models always fail to include all the relevant factors, and therefore
always wrong. Ecosystems which have been very dry, wet, cold, or hot,
will prolly change the most. I would stay out of them. The temperate
zones where plants have had to adapt to wide variations are a better
bet.
Well said.
Thanx. Lemmee add this for your consideration, as if things were not
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071112172203.htm
Talks about a new method of generating hydrogen from cellulose that is
several times more efficient. But then, there's the fine print. the
cathode needs platinum as a catalyst. Platinum is 1446$/oz today. Got
any to spare? i dunno, but alternative energy is just like global
warming. Every time you think you see a solution, there's another
gotcha.
Post by Captain Compassion
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius>
If you know of any place you can go where you wont find yourself among
the ranks of the insane, could you send me a private email? Rite now,
I live alone in the Ozark boonies, and everyone I know is merely
neurotic, best enjoyed in small occasional visits. My heart goes out
to those people, but I'm retired from case work. It is just too
stressful, and from what I can tell of those in the field, getting
more so. Even the people prescribing meds are on meds.
<"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill>
A reasonable analysis. "Sinister" implies some kind of mastermind
behind it, but I dont see anything that well organized. I got an email
saying the FBI seized the assets of the "Liberty Dollar". Which
certainly seems sinister, but again, not well thot out. Just what do
they expect to do with a few tons of precious metal against the scale
of disaster Churchill worried about?
Take, for instance, http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/ which
shows 90% of the global stock indexes all having losses. And
conversely, corn, oats, wheat, rice, & soybeans, are all near record
highs. Why is it that Ron Paul cant figure out that it'd be far better
to base the dollar on something the US produces, ie grain, rather than
gold, which the US imports? Even the leadership is insane.
I don't worry about the markets, stock or otherwise, all that much.
Market fluctuations are designed to eliminate the little guy. If you
do the opposite of the "little guy" you usually do ok. High commodity
prices aren't all that bad for the US. We can afford it and they are
our commodities. High good is ok. The #2 gold producing country in the
world is Nevada. Stay armed and keep them yankees off your mountain.

Cheers
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Captain Compassion
2007-11-18 06:54:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:51:46 -0800 (PST), Day Brown
Post by Captain Compassion
I don't worry about the markets, stock or otherwise, all that much.
Market fluctuations are designed to eliminate the little guy. If you
do the opposite of the "little guy" you usually do ok. High commodity
prices aren't all that bad for the US. We can afford it and they are
our commodities. High good is ok. The #2 gold producing country in the
world is Nevada. Stay armed and keep them yankees off your mountain.
i thot the USA was way down the line of gold producers behind South
Africa, Russia, and mines in Central Africa and South America.
This summer I went on a fishing trip up to Northern Nevada and stayed
in Elko. I was shocked. This is one booming place. From what I
understand much of Northern Elko and Humbolt counties covered with low
grade gold deposits. Not all that rich or concentrated but covering
hundreds of square miles. It is being extracted not in mines but from
surface extraction like copper and such. While not profitable at $200
an ounce but at near $800 an ounce it is extremely profitable.
But certainly, the USA produces, and exports, lots of grain that
China, India, and the Arab oil nations need.
From what I can tell, the Yankees coming here are mostly vets. Guys
who like to hunt and fish. Unless you are a fly fisherman, you prolly
dont know that the world record holder brown trout came out of the
Little Red 20 miles from me. And unless you hunt, you would not notice
that the antlers on my wall are not deer, but elk. We also have open
seasons on bear, turkey, and wild boar (which were introduced from
Europe). The question is not whether they are Yankees, but whether
they are wussies.
I have fished the White River on several occasions and have traveled
the Ozarks. It is nice country.
the history is obscure, but during the civil war, the Ozark counties
seceded... from the confederate government in Little Rock. These
hillbillies were not going to fight to preserve slavery for the
benefit of the rich plantation owners on the delta. The Union army
never came thru either. They liked being left alone then, and they
still like it.
Sounds like a good place to be. I chose rural Nevada.
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Captain Compassion
2007-11-20 16:48:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:36:17 -0800 (PST), Day Brown
I write of the Ozarks cause that's what I know. I'm not surprised that
Northern Nevada is likewise well situated for a post crash economy,
altho I'd worry about forest fires. But going to an area you know, and
better yet are known, is a very high priority. Even if things go on as
they always have, such rural areas offer the saner lifestyles.
Post crash economy? Perhaps but I'm here for the hunting, fishing
cheap living expenses and the $1.50 well drinks.
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Neolibertarian
2007-11-10 01:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
This may seem like a depressing conclusion, but it's really an
optimistic one. If we fail to reduce emissions quickly enough and find
ourselves frying, we must throw everything we possibly can at the
problem to counteract the warming process, however temporarily. At no
point - I repeat, at no point - do we give up and admit that all is
lost.
Of course we will never admit that "all is lost."

Just as they'll never admit that "Global Warming" is something worse
than a lie and a hoax.
--
NeoLibertarian

"Politics, when I am in it, it makes me sick."
---William Howard Taft
Jerry Okamura
2007-11-10 23:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Politically Incorrect
2007-11-11 00:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Okamura
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
stop exhaling? stop plant decomposition? stop volcanoes from erupting? stop
shaking up sodas? the possibilities are endless ;)



.
Tartarus
2007-11-11 03:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Okamura
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
You cut man's emissions by 60 to 80%.

Tartarus
Politically Incorrect
2007-11-11 16:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
You cut man's emissions by 60 to 80%.
so you admit that there is nothing that can be done about "natural"
emissions?

how about continental drift?
Post by Tartarus
Tartarus
Tartarus
2007-11-11 17:58:18 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 11, 9:30 am, "Politically Incorrect"
Post by Politically Incorrect
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
You cut man's emissions by 60 to 80%.
so you admit that there is nothing that can be done about "natural"
emissions?
Admit? What is there to admit? What happens in nature we are almost
powerless to change. Almost. We can slow decay , sequester CO2,
encourage marine life that absorbs CO2, and so on, but that is a
losing battle. There is just too much. We *can* do something about our
emissions, though.
Post by Politically Incorrect
how about continental drift?
That too would be extremely difficult to do. What's your point?

Tartarus
c***@yahoo.com
2007-11-12 07:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
You cut man's emissions by 60 to 80%.
Those nuclear power plants that were prevented from being built in the
70's and 80's would have already done so. Oh, and the folks who
prevented them from being built are the ones demanding the emissions
be drastically reduced. Oh, the irony.

Brandon
Day Brown
2007-11-13 07:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Those nuclear power plants that were prevented from being built in the
70's and 80's would have already done so. Oh, and the folks who
prevented them from being built are the ones demanding the emissions
be drastically reduced. Oh, the irony.
In a rational world, nukes would fit well. But in an irrational world,
they are rich targets for terrorism. It was not upta me to fill the
world with religious fanatics willing to use any means necessary to
fulfill what they think is "god's will". Wouldnt they still be waiting
for the Rapture with more nuclear power?

We are where we are, and the most bang for the buck right now is
windfarms in many locations, cause the wind is always blowing
*somewhere*. Besides, wont you enjoy watching Sen. Kennedy having to
steer his sailing yacht around the wind turbine towers off his
beachfront?

I'm curious as to why threads like this dont discuss the Greenland ice
cores, which show that Global Warming has been going on for 10,000
years. That dont sound like anything hominids can stop. They didnt
start it. Not that the climate change is not going to have devastating
consequences, which it would be more useful, to consider how to deal
with.

There are some entrepreneurs who have figured this out. Some farmers,
after they finished putting their crops in last spring, loaded their
equipment on trucks up to the Yukon, where they put in even more crops
in what had formerly been permafrost. If we are going to feed the
staving billions, we may *need* global warming for the arctic ice cap
to melt so the temps in Siberia, Canada, and Alaska will be warm enuf
in summer to grow the food.
s***@shaw.ca
2007-11-13 09:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
Post by c***@yahoo.com
70's and 80's would have already done so. Oh, and the folks who
prevented them from being built are the ones demanding the emissions
be drastically reduced. Oh, the irony.
In a rational world, nukes would fit well. But in an irrational world,
they are rich targets for terrorism. It was not upta me to fill the
world with religious fanatics willing to use any means necessary to
fulfill what they think is "god's will". Wouldnt they still be waiting
for the Rapture with more nuclear power?
We are where we are, and the most bang for the buck right now is
windfarms in many locations, cause the wind is always blowing
*somewhere*. Besides, wont you enjoy watching Sen. Kennedy having to
steer his sailing yacht around the wind turbine towers off his
beachfront?
I'm curious as to why threads like this dont discuss the Greenland ice
cores, which show that Global Warming has been going on for 10,000
years.
What Greenland Ice Cores? Cite, please.
Post by Day Brown
That dont sound like anything hominids can stop. They didnt
start it. Not that the climate change is not going to have devastating
consequences, which it would be more useful, to consider how to deal
with.
There are some entrepreneurs who have figured this out. Some farmers,
after they finished putting their crops in last spring, loaded their
equipment on trucks up to the Yukon, where they put in even more crops
in what had formerly been permafrost. If we are going to feed the
staving billions, we may *need* global warming for the arctic ice cap
to melt so the temps in Siberia, Canada, and Alaska will be warm enuf
in summer to grow the food.
Which will be more than balanced by the farmland lost to drought.

Loser.
Day Brown
2007-11-13 23:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
I'm curious as to why threads like this dont discuss the Greenland ice
cores, which show that Global Warming has been going on for 10,000
years.
What Greenland Ice Cores? Cite, please.
Since you resort to ad hominum its understandable that you are too
lazy or stupid to surf the question rather than having to accept a
link posted by me: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/
There are lotsa others. The temp chart is about halfway down the page
on this one. You can see the rise that kicked in 12,000 years ago.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
That dont sound like anything hominids can stop. They didnt
start it. Not that the climate change is not going to have devastating
consequences, which it would be more useful, to consider how to deal
with.
There are some entrepreneurs who have figured this out. Some farmers,
after they finished putting their crops in last spring, loaded their
equipment on trucks up to the Yukon, where they put in even more crops
in what had formerly been permafrost. If we are going to feed the
staving billions, we may *need* global warming for the arctic ice cap
to melt so the temps in Siberia, Canada, and Alaska will be warm enuf
in summer to grow the food.
Which will be more than balanced by the farmland lost to drought.
YMMV. Canada did have problems this year because the varieties they
use were not used to such warm dry weather. But there are hybrids used
in Australia and the US that no only handle it, produce even more food
with the warmer and drier weather. I was born on a farm so I know how
important it is to have a dry spell when its time to harvest grain.

Chinese are now going to Southern Siberia to run truck farms in
summer, and as that kicks in, the global supply of veggies should rise
dramatically. The area used to be too dry as well as too cold, but
with the Arctic Ocean liquid now, moisture is being collected which is
then brought south into Central Asia. Last winter, Khotan had a record
snowfall. The Mongolian stock breeding of grass fed beef is doing
really well also.

Granted that Australia has had bad drought, and that the hurricanes we
expected hit China instead, but whether you are a loser or not depends
on where you are. So far, the net increase in farmland in the far
north looks very promising. Another nice thing too, is that this
ground has not been contaminated with years of petrochemicals, and
that the winters are still so cold that the ground freezes deep enuf
to kill all the bugs. Which means they wont need nearly as much
pesticide either.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Loser.
s***@shaw.ca
2007-11-14 01:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
cores, which show that Global Warming has been going on for 10,000
years.
What Greenland Ice Cores? Cite, please.
Since you resort to ad hominum its understandable
Asking for a cite is ad hominem? Oh, please.
Post by Day Brown
that you are too
lazy or stupid to surf the question rather than having to accept a
link posted by me:http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/
Oh, far be it from me to demand proof of people who make claims. Very
well, I claim that your mother was a retarded drug addict.
Post by Day Brown
There are lotsa others. The temp chart is about halfway down the page
on this one. You can see the rise that kicked in 12,000 years ago.
No, idiot, that's not what the graph shows. It clearly shows that
there was an 8 C rise over the period 20000 to 10000 BC. And it also
shows that the temperature has been at a dead stop for the last 10000
years.

What's more, 8C over 10000 years corresponds to roughly a 0.08 C rise
per century. Our temperature is currently rising at about 10 times
that rate.

Nice try, ostrich. Time to pull your head out of the sand.
Post by Day Brown
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
That dont sound like anything hominids can stop. They didnt
start it. Not that the climate change is not going to have devastating
consequences, which it would be more useful, to consider how to deal
with.
There are some entrepreneurs who have figured this out. Some farmers,
after they finished putting their crops in last spring, loaded their
equipment on trucks up to the Yukon, where they put in even more crops
in what had formerly been permafrost. If we are going to feed the
staving billions, we may *need* global warming for the arctic ice cap
to melt so the temps in Siberia, Canada, and Alaska will be warm enuf
in summer to grow the food.
Which will be more than balanced by the farmland lost to drought.
YMMV. Canada did have problems this year because the varieties they
use were not used to such warm dry weather. But there are hybrids used
in Australia and the US that no only handle it, produce even more food
with the warmer and drier weather.
Oh, goody, tell me, how does it work when there's no rain at all?
What do you think is going to happen down south where there's already
a water shortage when the rainfall gets cut in half?
Post by Day Brown
I was born on a farm so I know how
important it is to have a dry spell when its time to harvest grain.
Man does not live on grain alone, moron. What about rice? You know,
the staple food for billions of Asians? You know how much rain you
need to grow that? Or the dozens of other crops which require large
amounts of water? Not to mention livestock.
Post by Day Brown
Chinese are now going to Southern Siberia to run truck farms in
summer, and as that kicks in, the global supply of veggies should rise
dramatically.
Surrrrrreeeee it will.
Post by Day Brown
The area used to be too dry as well as too cold, but
with the Arctic Ocean liquid now, moisture is being collected which is
then brought south into Central Asia. Last winter, Khotan had a record
snowfall. The Mongolian stock breeding of grass fed beef is doing
really well also.
Oh good, so how many generations do you think it'll take to figure out
what grows well up there? And it the meantime, how much southern
farmland will turn into uselss desert?
Post by Day Brown
Granted that Australia has had bad drought, and that the hurricanes we
expected hit China instead, but whether you are a loser or not depends
on where you are. So far, the net increase in farmland in the far
north looks very promising.
And what about the net loss in other places?
Post by Day Brown
Another nice thing too, is that this
ground has not been contaminated with years of petrochemicals, and
that the winters are still so cold that the ground freezes deep enuf
to kill all the bugs. Which means they wont need nearly as much
pesticide either.
Uh huh, sure a lot of maybes in there.
Post by Day Brown
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Loser.
Retard.
Day Brown
2007-11-14 19:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
cores, which show that Global Warming has been going on for 10,000
years.
What Greenland Ice Cores? Cite, please.
Since you resort to ad hominum its understandable
Asking for a cite is ad hominem? Oh, please.
I refer to the dismissiveness and the "loser" at the end of your
response. From your attitude, anyone who dares to disagree with you is
a fool. Why do you argue with fools?
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
that you are too
lazy or stupid to surf the question rather than having to accept a
link posted by me:http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/
Oh, far be it from me to demand proof of people who make claims. Very
well, I claim that your mother was a retarded drug addict.
It only took a minute to google the ice core chart. Your aggressive
attitude did not seem to permit that.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
There are lotsa others. The temp chart is about halfway down the page
on this one. You can see the rise that kicked in 12,000 years ago.
No, idiot, that's not what the graph shows. It clearly shows that
there was an 8 C rise over the period 20000 to 10000 BC. And it also
shows that the temperature has been at a dead stop for the last 10000
years.
Agreed, remarkably stable over the course of the last 10,000 years.
when global warming, that is after the ice age, began. You are talking
about a system that has a lot of data, such as you show....
Post by s***@shaw.ca
What's more, 8C over 10000 years corresponds to roughly a 0.08 C rise
per century. Our temperature is currently rising at about 10 times
that rate.
Nice try, ostrich. Time to pull your head out of the sand.
During the ice ages, the temperature changed quite often at even
faster rates, going both up or down within a century or so, often
within a few score of years, once that I saw, only took a decade. You
are talking about a fractal system such that you never have complete
confindence to know which way things will go next. Your dismissiveness
of any other vector than that which you see is indicative.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
YMMV. Canada did have problems this year because the varieties they
use were not used to such warm dry weather. But there are hybrids used
in Australia and the US that no only handle it, produce even more food
with the warmer and drier weather.
Oh, goody, tell me, how does it work when there's no rain at all?
What do you think is going to happen down south where there's already
a water shortage when the rainfall gets cut in half?
That does not make any sense on a global scale. As the oceans warm,
and we see this already in the arctic, the evaporation off them
increases so that the net total of moisture in the global atmosphere
increases. And as that increases, so does the cloud cover. I would
expect to see changes in the rainfall patterns, which has been the
case most obviously in central Asia.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
I was born on a farm so I know how
important it is to have a dry spell when its time to harvest grain.
Man does not live on grain alone, moron. What about rice? You know,
the staple food for billions of Asians? You know how much rain you
need to grow that? Or the dozens of other crops which require large
amounts of water? Not to mention livestock.
I think the Chinese are smart enuf to figure that out. They expect the
Three Gorges to solve many of these problems. We will see.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
Chinese are now going to Southern Siberia to run truck farms in
summer, and as that kicks in, the global supply of veggies should rise
dramatically.
Surrrrrreeeee it will.
I would not be so dismissive of the skill of millions of Chinese
gardeners. They are also using clear plastic to extend the growing
season on row crops.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
The area used to be too dry as well as too cold, but
with the Arctic Ocean liquid now, moisture is being collected which is
then brought south into Central Asia. Last winter, Khotan had a record
snowfall. The Mongolian stock breeding of grass fed beef is doing
really well also.
Oh good, so how many generations do you think it'll take to figure out
what grows well up there? And it the meantime, how much southern
farmland will turn into uselss desert?
You have not noticed how monoon rains, which formerly only hit the
gulf coast, and petered out within a hundred miles or so now make it
all the way up to the Ozark and New Mexican mountains? Texas has had
the opposite problem; floods.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
Granted that Australia has had bad drought, and that the hurricanes we
expected hit China instead, but whether you are a loser or not depends
on where you are. So far, the net increase in farmland in the far
north looks very promising.
And what about the net loss in other places?
We will see. It is your certainty that I find irrational and partisan
rather than persuasive. The amount of land in the north is several
times what was useful in Eastern Australia. There are hybrids from
Scandinavia that would prolly do well in the Yukon and Alaska.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
Another nice thing too, is that this
ground has not been contaminated with years of petrochemicals, and
that the winters are still so cold that the ground freezes deep enuf
to kill all the bugs. Which means they wont need nearly as much
pesticide either.
Uh huh, sure a lot of maybes in there.
Care to name some? Just because the permafrost melts dont mean that
the ground still dont freeze for a meter or two down every winter.
We'll see. depends on how much snowcover, which could increase
dramatically if the arctic ocean stays liquid long enuf. But none of
the blister beetles, potato bugs, cut worms, or squash bugs I know of
bury themselves or their eggs more than a foot down. I was frankly
very surprised at how much worse the bug problem was in Arkansas than
in Minnesota where the water pipes hadda be 5 ft down to prevent
freezing.
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Post by Day Brown
Post by s***@shaw.ca
Loser.
Retard.
Captain Compassion
2007-11-11 17:08:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:52:26 -1000, "Jerry Okamura"
Post by Jerry Okamura
Post by Captain Compassion
How to stop climate change: the easy way
Mark Lynas
Published 08 November 2007
http://www.newstatesman.com/200711080026
We have about 100 months left. If global greenhouse gas emissions have
not begun to decline by the end of 2015, then our chances of
restraining climate change to within the two degrees "safety line" -
the level of warming below which the impacts are severe but tolerable
- diminish day by day thereafter. This is what the latest science now
demands: the peaking of emissions within eight years, worldwide cuts
of 60 per cent by 2030, and 80 per cent or more by 2050. Above two
degrees, our chances of crossing "tipping points" in the earth's
system - such as the collapse of the Amazon rainforest, or the release
of methane from thawing Siberian permafrost - is much higher.
Let me concencrate of the statement above. We need to "cut" emmissions by
60 to 80%. I just learned that there is someone who said that the total
contribution by man of CO2 is 10%. Now, whatever that number actually is,
mans contribution to CO2 is NOT 60 TO 80%. So, "if" we need to cut
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Start drastically decreasing the human population by any means
necessary.

If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion

“Given the total, absolute, and final disappearance of Homo Sapiens,
not only would the Earth’s community of life continue to exist, but in
all probability, its well-being would be enhanced. Our presence, in
short, is not needed. And if we were to take the standpoint of that
Life Community and give voice to its true interests, the ending of the
human epoch on Earth would most likely be greeted with a hearty “Good
riddance!” -- Paul Taylor

“Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social
and environmental.” -- Dave Forman
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Tartarus
2007-11-11 17:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Okamura
So, "if" we need to cut
Post by Jerry Okamura
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Start drastically decreasing the human population by any means
necessary.
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.


Tartarus
Captain Compassion
2007-11-11 18:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
So, "if" we need to cut
Post by Jerry Okamura
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Start drastically decreasing the human population by any means
necessary.
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.

“Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized nations
collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?” -- Maurice
Strong

"They [natural things] have intrinsic value, more value - to me - than
another human body, or a billion of them. Human happiness, and
certainly human fecundity, are not as important as a wild and healthy
planet. Somewhere along the line - about a billion years ago - we quit
the contract and became a cancer. We have become a plague upon
ourselves and upon the Earth. Until such time as Homo Sapiens should
decide to rejoin nature, some of us can only hope for the right virus
to come along." -- David Graber

Curing a body of cancer requires radical and invasive therapy, and
therefore, curing the biosphere of the human virus will also require a
radical and invasive approach -- Paul Watson (Founder and President of
Sea Shepherd Conservation Society)
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Tartarus
2007-11-11 18:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
So, "if" we need to cut
Post by Jerry Okamura
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Start drastically decreasing the human population by any means
necessary.
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
No, it isn't, and I defy you to show that the best and brightest
advocate this.
Post by Captain Compassion
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.

Tartarus
Captain Compassion
2007-11-11 19:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Jerry Okamura
So, "if" we need to cut
Post by Jerry Okamura
emissions by 60 to 80%, how do we do that?
Start drastically decreasing the human population by any means
necessary.
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
No, it isn't, and I defy you to show that the best and brightest
advocate this.
Certainly those that advocate this position think they are.
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.
In other words you can modify human behavior with guns. But are you
really modifying that behavior or suppressing it? There is a
difference you know. When those being "modified" get guns themselves
then the behavior usually reverts back to type.
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Tartarus
2007-11-12 07:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
No, it isn't, and I defy you to show that the best and brightest
advocate this.
Certainly those that advocate this position think they are.
Irrelevant. *You* claimed they were the best and brightest. Make up
your mind.
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.
In other words you can modify human behavior with guns. But are you
really modifying that behavior or suppressing it? There is a
difference you know. When those being "modified" get guns themselves
then the behavior usually reverts back to type.
You are modifying the behavior. Murderers have guns, and we regularly
put them in prison. Murder is outlawed, and outlawed successfully,
despite the fact that they have guns.

Tartarus
Captain Compassion
2007-11-13 04:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
No, it isn't, and I defy you to show that the best and brightest
advocate this.
Certainly those that advocate this position think they are.
Irrelevant. *You* claimed they were the best and brightest. Make up
your mind.
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.
In other words you can modify human behavior with guns. But are you
really modifying that behavior or suppressing it? There is a
difference you know. When those being "modified" get guns themselves
then the behavior usually reverts back to type.
You are modifying the behavior. Murderers have guns, and we regularly
put them in prison. Murder is outlawed, and outlawed successfully,
despite the fact that they have guns.
So crime is eliminated? Should I not set my alarm tonight?
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Captain Compassion
2007-11-13 04:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
If you accept the accuracy of Catastrophic Anthropocentric Climate
Change then you must accept and advocate the end of human kind. --
Captain Compassion
That is silly to the point of stupidity.
Yet it is the position advocated by some of the best and brightest.
No, it isn't, and I defy you to show that the best and brightest
advocate this.
Certainly those that advocate this position think they are.
Irrelevant. *You* claimed they were the best and brightest. Make up
your mind.
Why would your opinion have more weight than theirs?
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
Post by Tartarus
Post by Captain Compassion
What would you suggest? Modify human behavior? Might as well try to
convince wolves not to eat meat.
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.
In other words you can modify human behavior with guns. But are you
really modifying that behavior or suppressing it? There is a
difference you know. When those being "modified" get guns themselves
then the behavior usually reverts back to type.
You are modifying the behavior. Murderers have guns, and we regularly
put them in prison. Murder is outlawed, and outlawed successfully,
despite the fact that they have guns.
Tartarus
--
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius

"...the whole world, including the United States, including all that
we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark
Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights
of perverted science." -- Sir Winston Churchill

Joseph R. Darancette
***@NOSPAMcharter.net
Day Brown
2007-11-12 06:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tartarus
It is easy to modify human behavior. All it takes is a law with the
promise of a stiff fine or a prison term.
Like the War on drugs? But if we legalize all drugs, then those who
lack the self control to use them properly will filter themselves from
the gene pool.

Which will leave more of the rational, and fewer of the irrational.
That would change human behavior.

Add it up. There is no way to support the modern middle class nuclear
family lifestyle sustainably. There is not enuf oil to gas up all the
cars. Not enuf heating fuel for all the houses even if we could cut
down all the forests to build them.

But should hominids return to their evolutionarily adapted system of
communal houses, then the carbon foot per capita is manageable. This
moves cottage industry up to the scale of small business, which has
been shown to be most economically competitive.

The nuclear family sorta worked when there were lotsa kids. But when
there's only 1-2 in a house, then what you get is a generation of
spoiled brats who dont grow up knowing how to compete. A communal
house, even with each woman only having 1 or 2, has a group of kids in
it that instinctively respond as if all the others are siblings, and
therefore learn to both compete, and cooperate economically.

The Chinese are already doing this trying to keep folks down on the
farm by building multi-story apartment houses out in the boonies with
modern kitchens and bathrooms, satellite TV, Internet, and better
thermal management. Then, moving everyone in and tearing down the
village, making all that land available for crops.
Loading...