Discussion:
Fort Hood Finger Pointing Starts
(too old to reply)
SMITH29
2009-11-08 20:22:38 UTC
Permalink
I suspect this will get R E A L lame before it's over.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
lein
2009-11-08 20:26:30 UTC
Permalink
I suspect this will get  R E A L  lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
yeah, its kind of hard to make friends when all you talk about is how
great it is to strap on a suicide vest and blow up women and children
Yer Pal Al
2009-11-08 21:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by lein
I suspect this will get  R E A L  lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
yeah, its kind of hard to make friends when all you talk about is how
great it is to strap on a suicide vest and blow up women and children
The Mosque should have been his "community." That's where his friends
should have been. Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Baxter
2009-11-08 23:42:30 UTC
Permalink
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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"Yer Pal Al" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
SMITH29
2009-11-08 23:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
xxxx
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.

29
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 01:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Call for references, and not just the jokes that go around.

While there are some "inactive" Mormons who drink alcohol, that is not
the general rule. In fact Utah is among the lowest per capita in
alcohol consumption by state. Of course not all Utah residents are
Mormons, nor are all Mormons in Utah but that has to mean something

www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/GraphicsGallery/consfigs4text.htm

Incidently, Oregon is among the highest states in per capita
consumption.
SMITH29
2009-11-09 01:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by SMITH29
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Call for references, and not just the jokes that go around.
While there are some "inactive" Mormons who drink alcohol, that is not
the general rule. In fact Utah is among the lowest per capita in
alcohol consumption by state. Of course not all Utah residents are
Mormons, nor are all Mormons in Utah but that has to mean something
www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/GraphicsGallery/consfigs4text.htm
Incidently, Oregon is among the highest states in per capita
consumption.
xxxx
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/nconsum04.htm

29
SMITH29
2009-11-09 02:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by SMITH29
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Call for references, and not just the jokes that go around.
While there are some "inactive" Mormons who drink alcohol, that is not
the general rule. In fact Utah is among the lowest per capita in
alcohol consumption by state. Of course not all Utah residents are
Mormons, nor are all Mormons in Utah but that has to mean something
www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/GraphicsGallery/consfigs4text.htm
xxxx
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
It's lower than us Neanderthal knuckle dragger's but being smack dab in
the center of the Mormon belt I'm thinking the majority of residents are
indeed Mormon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Corridor
One positive attribute is they tend to take care of themselves in many
cases....

29
Post by hal lillywhite
Incidently, Oregon is among the highest states in per capita
consumption.
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 04:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference? Not true in any case, such statistics are *averages* and
say little or nothing about what any individual in that group does.
Post by SMITH29
It's lower than us Neanderthal knuckle dragger's
As I say, Utah has a much lower than average alcohol consumption.
Almost certainly that is due to the Mormon culture providing a lot of
teetotalers who bring the average down. As Smith29's link documents,
Utah has about 70% who do not drink alcohol at all. Rather in
contrast to the claim that Mormons drink.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 06:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference? Not true in any case,
True in any case.

http://www.beerinfo.com/index.php/pages/beerstateconsumption.html
Post by hal lillywhite
such statistics are *averages* and
say little or nothing about what any individual in that group does.
Post by SMITH29
It's lower than us Neanderthal knuckle dragger's
As I say, Utah has a much lower than average alcohol consumption.
Almost certainly that is due to the Mormon culture providing a lot of
teetotalers who bring the average down. As Smith29's link documents,
Utah has about 70% who do not drink alcohol at all. Rather in
contrast to the claim that Mormons drink.
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.

Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.

peace and justice,
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 13:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference?  Not true in any case,
True in any case.
Absolutely not true. The claim was that *each* resident drinks 20
gallons. Clearly there are many who drink none at all.

...
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Yer Pal Al
2009-11-09 15:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference?  Not true in any case,
True in any case.
Absolutely not true.  The claim was that *each* resident drinks 20
gallons.  Clearly there are many who drink none at all.
...
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 20:28:26 UTC
Permalink
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.

Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.

Assuming an average stay of two weeks, that's the equivalent of 25,000
year round residents - or something less than 1% of Utah's population of
2.7 million.

Even if -all- those visitors drink like fishes, it ain't gonna make a
significant difference in average consumption.

peace and justice,
tdny
2009-11-09 20:35:34 UTC
Permalink
When we are involved in attacking countries, with majority Muslim
populations?

Such as Afghanistan, Iraq.

We have executed excursions into Pakistan.
We are contemplating attacking Iran.

Each of those countries are majority Muslim, their religon Islam.

We are training the Muslims enlisted in the USA Military to kill their
fellow Muslims.
And those Muslims are being trained, right alongside their fellow soldiers,
also being trained to kill Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

The countries that we are currently at war with are mostly Muslims, their
religion being Islam.

We are at war with Islam/Muslims and have recently slaughtered thousands in
Iraq.
We have left Iraq littered with the corpse of thousands of Muslims,both
civilians and insurgents.

Was their a valid reason for invading Iraq?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

So a Muslim recruit, being trained to kill in war, knows this.

Isn't it natural for that Muslim recruit to
have negative feelings towards America
and those that America trains for battle?

That Muslim recruit, knows that the fellow soldier, training right alongside
him,
will be in a Muslim country, killing his fellow Muslims.

He knows that.

What is the surprise here?

In order to play it safe, Muslim Recruits
should be released from any Military Duties
in the American Military, at once.

Even those that say,
they harbor no negative feelings,
no resentment towards America
are really loyal Americans, should be released.

There is no way to trust them.

Are we going to give the Muslims that kill other Muslims in war,
medals for killing their fellow Muslims?

The whole thing is ridiculous, not really thought out.


http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=107213&sectionid=351020403
UN: 1,500 Afghan civilians dead in 8 months
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 23:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state. There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.

I don't know how much those visitors skew the data but it is quite
possible they have a measurable effect if someone only had the data.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 00:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state. There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I don't know how much those visitors skew the data but it is quite
possible they have a measurable effect if someone only had the data.
C'mon Hal, put the traitor poodle back on his leash, he ought get no
responses here until he retracts his 911 "accounting".
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-10 06:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.

The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Post by hal lillywhite
I don't know how much those visitors skew the data but it is quite
possible they have a measurable effect if someone only had the data.
I shouldn't think so. But, as you note, the data on that is lacking.

The data on the number of ski tourists is easily available however. And,
contrary to the OP's inference, -they- are quite unlikely to make a
significant difference.

peace and justice,
Curt
2009-11-10 16:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.  
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith.  Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.

I've been back since, to go hang gliding at Draper and various other
things. There's some decent microbrews there now, at least in the SLC
area. IIRC, Wasatch Pale Ale was pretty good.

Curt
gb
2009-11-10 16:38:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:24:13 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
I've been back since, to go hang gliding at Draper and various other
things. There's some decent microbrews there now, at least in the SLC
area. IIRC, Wasatch Pale Ale was pretty good.
the CoJCoLDS has a remarkable history of knowing which side it's bread
is buttered on, and having its elders receive a Vision of a new
doctrinal tack on such matters.

Eventually EtOH consumption in UT, even amongst the Believers, will
become accepted. Its prohibition will end up being celebrated mostly
by scattered groups here and there, rather like the polygamy groups.

There's money in it.

There still remain scattered groups of WCTU, even after Prohibition
was repealed decades ago.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 19:30:27 UTC
Permalink
gb wrote:

======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
There's money in it.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 20:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
There's money in it.
======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
Post by gb
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
hal lillywhite
2009-11-11 00:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:24:13 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
I've been back since, to go hang gliding at Draper and various other
things. There's some decent microbrews there now, at least in the SLC
area. IIRC, Wasatch Pale Ale was pretty good.
the CoJCoLDS has a remarkable history of knowing which side it's bread
is buttered on, and having its elders receive a Vision of a new
doctrinal tack on such matters.
Which would be why they opposed repeal of prohibition, right? Even
though church owned facilities could earn more money by serving
alcohol.
Post by gb
Eventually EtOH consumption in UT, even amongst the Believers, will
become accepted.  Its prohibition will end up being celebrated mostly
by scattered groups here and there, rather like the polygamy groups.
I seriously doubt it but of course neither of us can prove our belief
on that.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-11 05:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by gb
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:24:13 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
I've been back since, to go hang gliding at Draper and various other
things. There's some decent microbrews there now, at least in the SLC
area. IIRC, Wasatch Pale Ale was pretty good.
the CoJCoLDS has a remarkable history of knowing which side it's bread
is buttered on, and having its elders receive a Vision of a new
doctrinal tack on such matters.
Which would be why they opposed repeal of prohibition, right? Even
though church owned facilities could earn more money by serving
alcohol.
Don't believe that it did. Utah was the 36th and deciding vote to ratify
the 21st amendment and the state that put the repeal of prohibition
"over the top".

I can't believe Utah was -less- Mormon in 1933 than it is today.

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 05:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
peace and justice,
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
hal lillywhite
2009-11-11 16:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by gb
the CoJCoLDS has a remarkable history of knowing which side it's bread
is buttered on, and having its elders receive a Vision of a new
doctrinal tack on such matters.
Which would be why they opposed repeal of prohibition, right?  Even
though church owned facilities could earn more money by serving
alcohol.
Don't believe that it did. Utah was the 36th and deciding vote to ratify
the 21st amendment and the state that put the repeal of prohibition
"over the top".
While it is true that Utah put the 36th over the top, that was over
the objections of church leaders, cf

www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon579.html

Which also discusses (indeed is primarily about) the repeal of the
laws against selling liquor by the drink.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-11 21:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by gb
the CoJCoLDS has a remarkable history of knowing which side it's bread
is buttered on, and having its elders receive a Vision of a new
doctrinal tack on such matters.
Which would be why they opposed repeal of prohibition, right? Even
though church owned facilities could earn more money by serving
alcohol.
Don't believe that it did. Utah was the 36th and deciding vote to ratify
the 21st amendment and the state that put the repeal of prohibition
"over the top".
While it is true that Utah put the 36th over the top, that was over
the objections of church leaders, cf
www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon579.html
Which also discusses (indeed is primarily about) the repeal of the
laws against selling liquor by the drink.
Dunno just how much credence one should give to a source which seems
terminally confused about exactly which constitutional amendment it was
which established prohibition.

It certainly wasn't the 19th, despite the claims of your cited source.

peace and justice,
hal lillywhite
2009-11-11 00:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.  
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith.  Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.
Curt
2009-11-11 05:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.  
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith.  Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals.  I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.

Curt
Clave
2009-11-11 06:21:03 UTC
Permalink
<...>
Post by Curt
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.
Your experience is the rule, IME.

Lunch at the Provo Olive Garden, ca 1993. We'd moved to the area (north of
the Point) a month earlier, and I got dragged to the OG by the Mormon
epicures I was working with.

I ordered coffee as I usually do with lunch. The waiter, looking all of 17,
gave me the obBlankStare, I repeated my order, everyone else placed theirs,
and he disappeared.

A few minutes later he was back, and put a steaming cup down in front of me.
A cup of tea.

I said, "Excuse me, but this is tea, not coffee." He said, no lie, "It is?"

We had a quick chat and he went to seek guidance. He came back some time
later with what was probably the single worst cup of coffee I can remember,
and it *was* memorable.

And this was in a major franchise restaurant in the second-largest metro
area in the state. Time also revealed this to be absolutely fucking
*typical* for restaurants in Provo and pretty much anywhere else in the
state more than a block away from a freeway ramp (SLC not so much if you
knew how to pick your restaurants).

Other exceptions existed but were too few to matter.

Jim
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 16:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
A few minutes later he was back, and put a steaming cup down in front of me.
A cup of tea.
Pity it wasn't a mug of non-dilute HCL.
Phxbrd
2009-11-11 16:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.

Curt
--------------

Guess who advertises motels in Monument Valley which is in Arizona?

www.utah.com/lodging/monumentvalley.htm
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 16:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.
Curt
--------------
Guess who advertises motels in Monument Valley which is in Arizona?
www.utah.com/lodging/monumentvalley.htm
Ever hear the term regional advertising?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Valley

Monument Valley is a region of the Colorado Plateau characterized by a
cluster of vast and iconic sandstone buttes, the largest reaching 1,000
ft (300 m) above the valley floor. It is located on the southern border
of Utah with northern Arizona (around 36°59?N 110°6?W), near the Four
Corners area.

Lodging

Interior of a "male" style Navajo hogan, with a stove made from a 55
gallon barrel
It is often difficult to find a place to stay near Monument Valley
during the peak tourist season (between April and September).[1] Places
to stay include The View Hotel at the rim of the valley, Goulding's
Lodge, located about 4 miles (6.4 km) from the park, and Bed and
Breakfast establishments such as FireTree Bed and Breakfast, where
guests can sleep in a traditionally built Navajo hogan.[2] Campgrounds
are also available, including Goulding's campground, and a campground
near the rim of the Valley operated by Monument Valley Navajo Tribal
Park. There are also lodgings further from the park, in Bluff (50
miles), Mexican Hat (22 miles) and Kayenta (about 25 miles). Each small
town has several motels, such as the Recapture Lodge and the Desert Rose
Inn in Bluff, the Holiday Inn and Hampton Inn in Kayenta, and the San
Juan Inn in Mexican Hat, located on a ledge above the San Juan River.[3]



Arizona advertises Lake Powell, of which 95% is in Utah.

http://www.arizonaguide.com/places-to-visit/arizona-parks-monuments/lake-powell-glen-canyon

http://www.powellguide.com/lake_powell_lodging/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Powell

Lake Powell is a reservoir on the Colorado River, straddling the border
between Utah and Arizona (most of it, along with Rainbow Bridge, is in
Utah).


You really are one senile old Mormon-hating doper, Les.
Curt
2009-11-11 20:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at
about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a
swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.
Curt
--------------
Guess who advertises motels in Monument Valley which is in Arizona?
www.utah.com/lodging/monumentvalley.htm-
I like it! Makes some sense, though.. people going through Monument
Valley might also spend some time in Utah. (I did, last road trip I
took thru the area. Also went to Cali and New Mexico.)

Curt
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 21:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.
Curt
--------------
Guess who advertises motels in Monument Valley which is in Arizona?
www.utah.com/lodging/monumentvalley.htm-
I like it! Makes some sense, though.. people going through Monument
Valley might also spend some time in Utah. (I did, last road trip I
took thru the area. Also went to Cali and New Mexico.)
Curt
Consider, you have, within a days drive or less:

Monument Valley

The Goosenecks of the San Juan

The La Sal Mtns.

Arches

Canyonlands

The 4 Corners

Lake Powell

Flagtstaff, AZ.

Gallup, NM

Cortez, Co.

Hovenweep NM

Grand Gulch

Moab, Ut.

Green River, Ut.

Capitol Reef NM

Goblin Valley

etc. etc...

Poor senile old Les was just trying for a lame swipe at the Mormons, the
sad old bigoted puke.
Phxbrd
2009-11-12 02:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at
about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a
swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who
never
do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith. Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals. I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.-
Couldn't tell you re unusual. We just stopped for dinner because it
was there.
Curt
--------------
Guess who advertises motels in Monument Valley which is in Arizona?
www.utah.com/lodging/monumentvalley.htm-
I like it! Makes some sense, though.. people going through Monument
Valley might also spend some time in Utah. (I did, last road trip I
took thru the area. Also went to Cali and New Mexico.)

Curt
-----------

I'm surprised the unscrupulous sonsabitches don't advertise Utah motels at
the Grand Canyon.
Yer Pal Al
2009-11-11 08:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
Would you say that out of state skiers to Snowbird drink more or less
beer than the average Utah resident?
I would think it's largely irrelevant.
Total out of state visitors to -all- of Utah's ski resorts was 647,000.
But ski resorts are far from the only tourist attractions in the
state.  
The OP addressed a -specific- Utah ski resort. Perhaps I might be
excused for only addressing Utah ski resorts in general?
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith.  Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
Something like seventeen years ago my brother, father and I took a
couple week motorcycle trip to the Grand Canyon. Came back through
Utah. The first place we stopped for dinner, when we ordered beer, the
waitress looked at us like we were nuts, and conversation stopped in
the restaurant. We wound up having soda instead -- this place didn't
even have beer. Nor coffee! And it was on a major highway.
Must have been an unusual place, probably small town serving mostly
locals.  I've seen lots of restaurants in Utah serve coffee and many
serve beer.
This is my experience too. I usually pick up a couple wives on the way
out as well.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 19:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
I shouldn't think so. But, as you note, the data on that is lacking.
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 19:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
peace and justice,
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-11 01:29:08 UTC
Permalink
I just thought of another item that may skew the beer drinking stats
for Utah. Not sure if this is still the case but it used to be
illegal to sell distilled spirits by the drink in the state.
It's not still the case - if it ever was. Utah liquor laws are quite
similar to Oregon's with the exception that Utah bars are allowed to
serve hard liquor while in Oregon, only restaurants (or bars
associatated with restaurants) can serve hard liquor.

Utah recently abolished it's "club" rule where bars were treated as
private clubs and drinkers had to buy a "membership". Those were
recently transformed into mere bars, open to all comers of legal age
without the membership gimick.

Restaurants in Utah are eligible for full sevice liquor permits and can
serve whatever alcoholic drinks they wish - including distilled spirits
and, near as I can tell, that's been the rule for quite some time.

Bars remain illegal in oregon, with or without membership. To serve hard
liquor, a full service restaurant is required.
If
someone goes to a restaurant craving alcohol, the only way to buy it
is in beer (and maybe wine, not sure about that), or at least that
used to be the case.
No longer.

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 01:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
No longer.
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
hal lillywhite
2009-11-11 00:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
There's Moab, Bryce, Zion's etc. Even Temple Square attracts
plenty of visitors of all faiths or no faith.  Many of those
attractions have longer seasons than the ski areas.
I shouldn't think the Bryce Canyon visitors spend a lot of time hoisting
apres-skis. But perhaps I'm wrong.
The ski resorts have lots of places to hoist a cool one, places which
are noticeably absent from the Temple Square
But places like Bryce are surrounded by tourist trap places, many of
which serve beer. And most tourists there are staying in hotels or
motels and eating out, only a minority camp or backpack. Even the
campers, if not backpacking, may carry their beer into the campground.

And visitors to Temple Square tend to stay in hotels and eat at
restaurants away from the square where alcohol is likely to be
available.
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
I don't know how much those visitors skew the data but it is quite
possible they have a measurable effect if someone only had the data.
I shouldn't think so. But, as you note, the data on that is lacking.
The data on the number of ski tourists is easily available however. And,
contrary to the OP's inference, -they- are quite unlikely to make a
significant difference.
The ski tourists alone won't make much difference, true. However
combined with other tourists it may make a difference.

I just thought of another item that may skew the beer drinking stats
for Utah. Not sure if this is still the case but it used to be
illegal to sell distilled spirits by the drink in the state. If
someone goes to a restaurant craving alcohol, the only way to buy it
is in beer (and maybe wine, not sure about that), or at least that
used to be the case.
SMITH29
2009-11-09 17:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference? Not true in any case,
True in any case.
Absolutely not true. The claim was that *each* resident drinks 20
gallons. Clearly there are many who drink none at all.
...
Post by Bill Shatzer
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
Some Mormons do take a swig or two but there are plenty who never do.
xxxx
Picky picky :-)
SMITH29
2009-11-09 17:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by SMITH29
Each Utah resident drinks 20 gallons of beer annually.
That's just beer alone.
Reference? Not true in any case,
True in any case.
http://www.beerinfo.com/index.php/pages/beerstateconsumption.html
Post by hal lillywhite
such statistics are *averages* and
say little or nothing about what any individual in that group does.
Post by SMITH29
It's lower than us Neanderthal knuckle dragger's
As I say, Utah has a much lower than average alcohol consumption.
Almost certainly that is due to the Mormon culture providing a lot of
teetotalers who bring the average down. As Smith29's link documents,
Utah has about 70% who do not drink alcohol at all. Rather in
contrast to the claim that Mormons drink.
Well Utah is about 2/3rds Mormon while its beer consumption is about
2/3rds the national average.
Either the non-Mormon population of Utah is swilling Budweiser at about
double the national average or some of the Mormons are taking a swig or
two (or three) now and then.
peace and justice,
xxxx
When I was with Philips 1967 our Utah engineer needed help so the wife
and I went to Ogden for 3 weeks.
We would party every night and had a ball.
The Mormon neighbor was critical of the beer busts until he was caught
red handed in the liquor store with a bottle of whiskey in hand.
LESSON LEARNED: Mormons, Islam, Catholic, Jew, Protestant, heathen, all
drink alcoholic beverages.
The statistics have trouble measuring home brew consumption.
Can Utahans brew beer?
http://www.truthout.org/030609B
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
peace and justice,
Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
gb
2009-11-09 17:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Some do indeed - proving once again that Religion doesn't stop folks
from doing what they really and truly Want to do.

But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.

Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:51:42 UTC
Permalink
gb wrote:

======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
Some do indeed - proving once again that Religion doesn't stop folks
from doing what they really and truly Want to do.
SMITH29
2009-11-13 02:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Some do indeed - proving once again that Religion doesn't stop folks
from doing what they really and truly Want to do.
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
--
Post by gb
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 02:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
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news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
Mormons drink on the sly but they drink plenty.
Some do indeed - proving once again that Religion doesn't stop folks
from doing what they really and truly Want to do.
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Wishful thinking?
gb
2009-11-13 17:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 18:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
Post by gb
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
SMITH29
2009-11-13 20:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
--
Post by gb
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-13 21:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Had this reading comprehension problem long?

peace and jusice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 21:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Bill Shatzer wrote:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Post by Bill Shatzer
Had this reading comprehension problem long?
peace and jusice,
Yer Pal Al
2009-11-13 23:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Had this reading comprehension problem long?
peace and jusice,
Sweet self mockery.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-14 23:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Had this reading comprehension problem long?
Sweet self mockery.
How long have YOU had this reading comprehension problem?

peace and justice,
SMITH29
2009-11-14 01:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Had this reading comprehension problem long?
peace and jusice,
xxxx
Was I talking to you, enema breath?
--
Post by Bill Shatzer
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-15 01:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Had this reading comprehension problem long?
Was I talking to you, enema breath?
If you wish a private conversation, take it to email child.

Otherwise, when you post on a public board, you're talking to everyone.

Not that you have much worth saying.

peace and justice,
gb
2009-11-13 21:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Some Xtians are WingNuts, some are not.

Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 21:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
Will you kill them too?

======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
Post by gb
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
SMITH29
2009-11-14 01:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
But it's also the case that Some Muslims also drink plenty, on the
sly, when they think no one is looking.
Just as Some Xtians commit adultery, even though that's proscribed
conduct too.
xxxx
I wonder why you state the obvious as if it was a revelation.
Because given the short attention span of WingNuts, they tend to
forget rather too easily.
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Some Xtians are WingNuts, some are not.
Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
xxxx
Your infantilism is amusing.
Hayakawa would just shake his head :-)
--
Post by gb
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Baxter
2009-11-14 04:33:50 UTC
Permalink
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Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Some Xtians are WingNuts, some are not.
Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
xxxx
Your infantilism is amusing.
Hayakawa would just shake his head :-)
Put down the clam juice and go to bed and sleep it off.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-14 04:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Some Xtians are WingNuts, some are not.
Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
xxxx
Your infantilism is amusing.
Hayakawa would just shake his head :-)
Put down the clam juice
You're INSANE, baxturd:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/voteratings

Since 1981, National Journal's annual vote ratings have defined where
members of Congress stand ideologically. The ratings rank lawmakers on
how they vote relative to each other on a conservative-to-liberal scale
in both the Senate and the House. The scores are based on the members'
votes in three areas: economic issues, social issues, and foreign policy.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal
senator in 2007, based on National Journal ’s vote
ratings. He shifted further to the left last year in the
run-up to the presidential primaries, after ranking as
the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two
years in the Senate.
gb
2009-11-14 15:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
Post by gb
Post by SMITH29
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
Some Xtians are WingNuts, some are not.
Some WingNuts are Xtians, some are not.
xxxx
Your infantilism is amusing.
Would you rather call names like a small child, or deal with the
observation as stated?
Post by SMITH29
Hayakawa would just shake his head :-)
Hayakawa often shook his head, but he wouldn't have at that
observation. He would have chuckled at your statement, however - a
feeble attempt to make exclusive that which is inclusive.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-14 18:17:51 UTC
Permalink
gb wrote:

======================================================================================

gb wrote:

dated: 10/8/2009
You should really find another set of friends. ;)
"Not my friends, clearly. Never used one, and wouldn't. Have
considered, once I'm well into my dotage, taking one of the target
rifles and a Gillie Suit into the woods, and simply offing a bunch of
them as far from anything as is possible.

Society would suffer no great loss thereby, seems to me."

===================================================================================
Would you rather call names like a small child, or deal with the
observation as stated?
Baxter
2009-11-13 21:59:14 UTC
Permalink
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Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't follow
the teachings of Christ.)
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 21:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian
Baxter blurts out a plaintive call for Viagra: "At my age, I don't need
balls. I'm done with the procreation stuff."
Yer Pal Al
2009-11-13 23:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex DeLarge
-
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian  
Baxter blurts out a plaintive call for Viagra: "At my age, I don't need
balls. I'm done with the procreation stuff."
So when sergeant says, "Oregon? All they have there are steers and
queers. What are you boy?"

Baxter doesn't have to come out of the closet to answer truthfully.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-13 23:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yer Pal Al
Post by Alex DeLarge
-
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Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian
Baxter blurts out a plaintive call for Viagra: "At my age, I don't need
balls. I'm done with the procreation stuff."
So when sergeant says, "Oregon? All they have there are steers and
queers. What are you boy?"
Baxter doesn't have to come out of the closet to answer truthfully.
<chuckle>

I think he misses his pony...
SMITH29
2009-11-14 01:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't follow
the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
--
Post by Baxter
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Baxter
2009-11-14 04:32:16 UTC
Permalink
-
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Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-14 04:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
Damaged goods, both.
LDosser
2009-11-14 08:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAZHAZHZHAZAZHHZZZHH!!!
SMITH29
2009-11-14 19:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
xxxx
First grader.
--
Post by Baxter
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Baxter
2009-11-14 19:59:51 UTC
Permalink
-
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Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
xxxx
First grader.
Anything posted here is open to comment by anyone else. If you wanted a
private conversation with Don, then you needed to take it to private email.
All you're doing is expressing sour grapes.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-14 19:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
xxxx
First grader.
Anything posted here is open to comment by anyone else. If you wanted a
private conversation with Don, then you needed to take it to private email.
All you're doing is expressing sour grapes.
Baxter blurts out a plaintive call for Viagra: "At my age, I don't need
balls. I'm done with the procreation stuff."
SMITH29
2009-11-14 21:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
-
Post by SMITH29
xxxx
So Xtians are your definition for your term " WingNut"?
No, but virtually all wingnuts claim to be Christian (but they don't
follow the teachings of Christ.)
xxxx
Did you get permission from Don to speak for him?
Or do you simply talk out of turn like a first grader.
Don is the son of a preacher - so am I.
xxxx
First grader.
Anything posted here is open to comment by anyone else. If you wanted a
private conversation with Don, then you needed to take it to private email.
All you're doing is expressing sour grapes.
xxxx
You didn't answer the question
" Did you get permission from Don to speak for him? "
--
Post by Baxter
Peace and jsutice,
KEEP CLAM!

The29
Baxter
2009-11-15 01:34:33 UTC
Permalink
-
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Post by SMITH29
Post by Baxter
Anything posted here is open to comment by anyone else. If you wanted a
private conversation with Don, then you needed to take it to private
email. All you're doing is expressing sour grapes.
xxxx
You didn't answer the question
" Did you get permission from Don to speak for him? "
Child, how long have you had this reading comprehension problem?

Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 01:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
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news:ffd4a380-64b2-4233-8681-
Post by Yer Pal Al
Of course, as a Moslem, he's not going to join his
neighbors for a beer.
Same thing if you're a Mormon.
Or a Seventh Day Adventist.

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Bill Shatzer wrote:

Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Post by Bill Shatzer
Or a Seventh Day Adventist.
peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baxter blurts out a plaintive call for Viagra: "At my age, I don't need
balls. I'm done with the procreation stuff."
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-08 20:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
I suspect this will get R E A L lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
Agreed.

But for spooky parallels, what are the chances he rents an apartment
from a guy named Jose Padilla?!?


"Hasan found the apartment through an advertisement in the Killeen Daily
Herald, said Jose Padilla, a retired Army man who owns the complex. "
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 00:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMITH29
I suspect this will get R E A L lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".

Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.

peace and justice,
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 01:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
I suspect this will get  R E A L  lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".
Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.
True and I know of no reliable evidence that "quiet loners" are all
that likely to go postal. More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them. Seems a bit much to
expect someone with those beliefs to work for the defense of his
country if those reports are true.
tdny
2009-11-09 04:44:22 UTC
Permalink
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23915.htm


Horror at Fort Hood Inspires Horribly Predictable Islamophobia

By John Nichols

November 06, 2009 "The Nation" --

Thursday's shootings at Fort Hood army base in Texas --
which have left at least 11 people dead and 31 others wounded --
were of course the "horrific outburst of violence"
that President Obama bemoaned and condemned Thursday.

But, because a soldier identified as the gunman had
a name that led to the presumption that he was Muslim,
the incident inspired an all-too-predictable outbreak of Islamophobia.

News reports named the man who used two handguns
in the assault on his fellow soldiers at a base
that is a prime point of departure for troops
headed to Iraq and Afghanistan as Major Malik Nidal Hasan.

The major, who was wounded during the incident,
was reportedly a psychiatrist who had served in
the Department of Psychology at the Center for
the Study of Traumatic Stress at the Bethesda
Naval Facility in Bethesda, Maryland,
before his transfer to Fort Hood.


Hours after the incident,
and hours after news anchors and politicians cited
his religion as an explanation for the shootings,
a family member told reporters Major Hasan was indeed a Muslim.

But that was hardly the only relevant detail about the major.

For instance, according to Texas Senator Bailey Hutchison,
preparing to deploy to Iraq. However, the senator said,

"I do know that he has been known to have told
people that he was upset about going (to Iraq)."


Several new reports suggested that the major saw
a deployment to Iraq as his "worst nightmare" and
recounted how he had treated victims of combat-related
stress and was upset about the war.

Military officials at the base and in Washington
refused to speculate about motivations or intents.

And Paul Sullivan,
executive director of the group Veterans for Common Sense,
noted that the incident might well be the latest in a series
of stress-related homicides and suicides involving soldiers
who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan or are being dispatched
to those occupied lands.

No one knew on Thursday whether stress, fear,
anger over mistreatment, mental illness or a
warped understanding of his religion might
have motivated Major Hasan.


The point here is not to defend the
soldier or his alleged actions.

Rather, it is to question the rush to
judgment regarding not just this one
Muslim but all Muslims.

It should be understood that to assume a
follower of Islam who engages in violence
is a jihadist is every bit as absurd to
assume that every follower of Christianity
who attacks others is a crusader.


The calculus makes no sense, and is rooted
in a bigotry that everyone from George W.
Bush to Pope Benedict XVI has condemned.

But that did not stop right-wing web sites
from exploding with incendiary speculation
about a "Jihad at Fort Hood?" and a "Terrorist Incident in Texas."

Fox News host Shepard Smith asked
Senator Hutchison on air:

"The name tells us a lot, does it not, senator?"

Hutchinson's response?

"It does.

It does, Shepard."

Neither Smith nor Hutchison had any information
to suggest that Major Hasan's name offered even
the slightest shred of information regarding the
incident at Fort Hood.

What could Hutchinson have said that might
have been more responsible response?

She could have emphasized that the
investigation of the shooting spree
has barely begun.

She might also have noted that thousands
of Muslims serve honorably, indeed heroically,
in the U.S. military;

that American Muslim soldiers have
died In Iraq and been buried
at Arlington Cemetery;


that some of the
first condemnations of the slayings
at Fort Hood came from Muslim veterans
such as Robert Salaam.

"I'm sad for those killed and wounded by
a traitor to both God and our country,
and I regret that I even feel that I have
to write something on the subject.

Words cannot express my emotions and
the instant headache I received when
notified by my dear sister Sheila Musaji
over at The American Muslim (TAM) concerning
the alleged culprit," wrote Salaam,

who served in the Marine Corps,
within minutes after learning the gunman's name.


"They have not yet released further details
such as the motive but I will state for the
record that no true Muslim could ever commit
such a crime against humanity.

As Muslims we are reminded that to
take one innocent life is as if one
killed all of mankind.

Muslims are also commanded to
keep their oaths when given."

Salaam is not alone in regretting that, as a Muslim,
he feels a need to respond to the incident with an
explanation of his religion.

But the conversation between Fox's Smith
and Senator Hutchinson reminds us why it
is necessary to respond.

And so Muslim groups have
responded quickly and unequivocally.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations,
the nation's largest Muslim civil rights
and advocacy group, issued a statement that read:

"We condemn this cowardly attack in the
strongest terms possible and ask that the
perpetrators be punished to the full extent
of the law.

No religious or political ideology could
ever justify or excuse such wanton and
indiscriminate violence.

The attack was particularly heinous in
that it targeted the all-volunteer army
that protects our nation.

American Muslims stand with our fellow
citizens in offering both prayers for
the victims and sincere condolences to
the families of those killed or injured."

Salam Al-Marayati,
executive director of the Muslim
Public Affairs Council, declared that,

"Our entire organization extends its heartfelt
condolences to the families of those killed as
well as to those wounded and their loved ones.

We stand in solidarity with law enforcement
and the US military to maintain the safety
and security of all Americans."

Those are sentiments that are worth noting,
especially by news anchors and senators who
are in a position to inform the discussion
of a horrific incident -- rather than to inflame it.

John Nichols is Washington correspondent for
The Nation and associate editor of The Capital
Times in Madison, Wisconsin.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 05:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
I suspect this will get R E A L lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".
Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.
True and I know of no reliable evidence that "quiet loners" are all
that likely to go postal.
The universe of mass shooters is sufficiently small (compared to the
overall population) that no group or personality type can be said to be
"likely" to go postal. Still, "quiet loners" seem to be involved in an
inordinate number of these "stranger to stranger" mass shootings.
Post by hal lillywhite
More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them.
I suspect that's more just another symptom of the "quiet loner" syndrome.
Post by hal lillywhite
Seems a bit much to
expect someone with those beliefs to work for the defense of his
country if those reports are true.
Well, it's not as if anyone was going to hand him a machine gun and tell
him to go out and kill Muslims. He was a psychiatrist, for gawdsakes -
and rather unlikely to see anything at all which even resembled combat.

I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.



peace and justice,
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 13:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
The universe of mass shooters is sufficiently small (compared to the
overall population) that no group or personality type can be said to be
"likely" to go postal.
True. The danger of blaming loners is that you end up mistreating
lots of people who just are not extroverts and who are quite good
citizens.
Post by Bill Shatzer
Still, "quiet loners" seem to be involved in an
inordinate number of these "stranger to stranger" mass shootings.
True but the probability of any given loner going postal is extremely
low. No need to suspect someone just cause he's a loner.
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them.  
I suspect that's more just another symptom of the "quiet loner" syndrome.
Huh? How many quiet loners preach against their country? And latest
information is that he was attempting to contact al Qaeda - and that
our intelligence people knew it but did not inform the army.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

I find it inexcusable that such potentially important information
would not be communicated to those who needed it.
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Seems a bit much to
expect someone with those beliefs to work for the defense of his
country if those reports are true.
Well, it's not as if anyone was going to hand him a machine gun and tell
him to go out and kill Muslims. He was a psychiatrist, for gawdsakes -
and rather unlikely to see anything at all which even resembled combat.
Huh? His job involved helping keep soldiers morale up and helping them
stay focused on their job. He would be in a position to encourage
soldiers either to be good soldiers or to work against the cause they
are fighting for, even to order many sent home. Plus why would you
want to pay anyone to go into a combat zone if they want your side to
lose?
Post by Bill Shatzer
I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.
Say what? Hawkeye Pierce never did anything because he never
existed. Fantasy is fantasy.
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-09 20:01:59 UTC
Permalink
-snip-
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.
Say what? Hawkeye Pierce never did anything because he never
existed. Fantasy is fantasy.
H. Richard Hornberger (the author of the original novel under the nom de
plume "Richard Hooker") was an Army surgeon in Korea and the book is
based on his experiences with the (very real) 8055th MASH. The character
of Hawkeye Pierce is based on Hornberger himself.

Hornberger, I note with some pride, was a Cornell graduate.

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Hornberger, I note with some pride, was a Cornell graduate.
Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
hal lillywhite
2009-11-09 23:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Bill Shatzer
I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.
Say what?  Hawkeye Pierce never did anything because he never
existed.  Fantasy is fantasy.
H. Richard Hornberger (the author of the original novel under the nom de
plume "Richard Hooker") was an Army surgeon in Korea and the book is
based on his experiences with the (very real) 8055th MASH. The character
of Hawkeye Pierce is based on Hornberger himself.
But even if true, how closely did the TV Hawkeye resemble the one in
the book? Or Hornberger himself? Movies and TV are notorious for
twisting things to their liking
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 23:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.
Say what? Hawkeye Pierce never did anything because he never
existed. Fantasy is fantasy.
H. Richard Hornberger (the author of the original novel under the nom de
plume "Richard Hooker") was an Army surgeon in Korea and the book is
based on his experiences with the (very real) 8055th MASH. The character
of Hawkeye Pierce is based on Hornberger himself.
But even if true, how closely did the TV Hawkeye resemble the one in
the book? Or Hornberger himself? Movies and TV are notorious for
twisting things to their liking
Hal why are you giving a known traitor like Shatzie any time off the leash?
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-10 06:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
I mean, "Hawkeye" Pierce was not exactly a gung ho supporter of either
the war or the Army but still managed to function more than adequately
as an Army Surgeon.
Say what? Hawkeye Pierce never did anything because he never
existed. Fantasy is fantasy.
H. Richard Hornberger (the author of the original novel under the nom de
plume "Richard Hooker") was an Army surgeon in Korea and the book is
based on his experiences with the (very real) 8055th MASH. The character
of Hawkeye Pierce is based on Hornberger himself.
But even if true,
Whaddya mean, "even if true". Would I lie to you, hal?
Post by hal lillywhite
how closely did the TV Hawkeye resemble the one in
the book? Or Hornberger himself? Movies and TV are notorious for
twisting things to their liking
Oh quite closely. Right up there with Yossarian and Gunner Asch as
examples of art closely mimicking life.

Please tell me you've read the book!

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-10 19:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Whaddya mean, "even if true". Would I lie to you, hal?
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
He was a psychiatrist, for gawdsakes -
Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
lein
2009-11-11 05:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
I suspect this will get  R E A L  lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".
Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.
True and I know of no reliable evidence that "quiet loners" are all
that likely to go postal.  
The universe of mass shooters is sufficiently small (compared to the
overall population) that no group or personality type can be said to be
"likely" to go postal. Still, "quiet loners" seem to be involved in an
inordinate number of these "stranger to stranger" mass shootings.
Post by hal lillywhite
More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them.  
I suspect that's more just another symptom of the "quiet loner" syndrome.
He wasn't a "quiet loner" given quite a few people knew of his radical
views. Perhaps you should use a more proper term, like "loan wolf".
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 05:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by lein
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by SMITH29
I suspect this will get R E A L lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".
Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.
True and I know of no reliable evidence that "quiet loners" are all
that likely to go postal.
The universe of mass shooters is sufficiently small (compared to the
overall population) that no group or personality type can be said to be
"likely" to go postal. Still, "quiet loners" seem to be involved in an
inordinate number of these "stranger to stranger" mass shootings.
Post by hal lillywhite
More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them.
I suspect that's more just another symptom of the "quiet loner" syndrome.
He wasn't a "quiet loner" given quite a few people knew of his radical
views. Perhaps you should use a more proper term, like "loan wolf".
...was he sharking too?
Bill Shatzer
2009-11-11 05:58:03 UTC
Permalink
lein wrote:

-snip-
Post by lein
He wasn't a "quiet loner" given quite a few people knew of his radical
views. Perhaps you should use a more proper term, like "loan wolf".
Is that anything like a loan shark?

peace and justice,
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-11 16:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
peace and justice,
What are you and why do you even draw breath in this world?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An argument might be made that bankers have wracked more damage to this
country than all the terrorists in this century and last.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Barack Hussein Bohica
2009-11-11 10:28:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:10:00 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bill Shatzer
I suspect this will get  R E A L  lame before it's over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33766545/ns/us_news-washington_post
"Quiet loner".
Rather the standard after the fact description of folks who engage in
these types of shootings, quite regardless of their religion.
True and I know of no reliable evidence that "quiet loners" are all
that likely to go postal.  
The universe of mass shooters is sufficiently small (compared to the
overall population) that no group or personality type can be said to be
"likely" to go postal. Still, "quiet loners" seem to be involved in an
inordinate number of these "stranger to stranger" mass shootings.
Post by hal lillywhite
More significant red flags would be the
reports that he was expressing great sympathy with the terrorists and
severe disagreement with the US going after them.  
I suspect that's more just another symptom of the "quiet loner" syndrome.
He wasn't a "quiet loner" given quite a few people knew of his radical
views. Perhaps you should use a more proper term, like "loan wolf".
Most significant is why the Deceitful One in the White House is so
heavily invested in denying the truth.
Alex DeLarge
2009-11-09 21:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
"Quiet loner".
Someone left a steaming pile of Shatzer on the sidewalk again:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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